Wesley Miller
Jul-24-2016 2:59 PM
here are the facts: if you read the novelization by ALAN DEAN FOSTER of the Dan O'Bannon script for ALIEN characters Ripley and Lambert were portrayed as each amorous with Cpt. Dallas... also in the 1970s was a string of USA drama highlighting whistleblowers in unions i.e. corporations.. blue collar men and women; with real intimacy off the clock but also caught up and bothered and insinuated by policy pressure for equality.. ala SALLY FIELD in NORMA RAE or later MERYL STREEP in SILKWOOD
this is the Ripley of character I read in the novelization and saw a day after finishing reading in a theater in Montgomery ALABAMA in 1979...
James Carmeron's school of speil berg and kubrick is the pool of injecting the salve of 'family values'; now I do not want to digress. .. into parte lines over cinema.. damn we should blend our colours nationally..
but the alien is not to be tamed is a equal opportun istic organism...
so Sigourney can see both sides and she is a gifted versatile person, actress and will satiate with a fantastic militiaristic salve for those who could never descend solo into the world of ALIEN 3 malcontents; discontents; grieving; and doubt...
I rest on ALIEN RESSURECTION it's a hangnail.. but as a scifi channel movie .. enjoyable except for the biological pathos of embryonic metamorphosis... shun the end.
ITs Sigourney that will glue this thread and return the family value protective military guns ablaze to audiences ala Reagan era POLTERGEIST etc.. I hope BLOKENKAAMP draws more upon TOBE HOOPER than boot kick praise from CAMERON
keep it visceral "R" rated visual dark suspensful and remember this story happens in space.. space is a void.. in space no can hear you scream.. humanize Ripley but as seen as epic failure in ALIEN: RESSURECTION fail to see cute and cuddly unless its busting a tune 'hello my ba by hello my dolly hell o my raga time gal.. ala Mel Brook's SPACEBALLS ;)
MY BIG QUESTION: who i scoring the film?
MonsterZero
Jul-24-2016 3:15 PM
"I thought [the decision to eliminate Newt, Hicks, and Bishop] was dumb. I thought it was a huge slap in the face to the fans."
I don't know...I consider the Alien movies horror films....every character is fair game. You lose that and it might as well be Star Trek or Star Wars.
As I've said before : The monsters are the stars.
S.M
Jul-24-2016 4:15 PM
Coz he's James Cameron.
"As I've said before : The monsters are the stars."
The AvP films would suggest one needs more than monsters.
Chris
Jul-24-2016 5:13 PM
@S.M, yeah I always felt the characters and relationships between them were what made the Alien films so compelling. The monsters were simply an engine, what truly scared us were our attempt to relate and sympathize with the characters caught in the unfortunate circumstance. Without solid characters and believable relationships, it's just not scary. Not once did I fear for anyone in AvP.... and when it came to AvP:R, I was rooting for the Aliens to take them all out. lol
S.M
Jul-24-2016 5:55 PM
"and she's scared of some stupid men? "
When was she scared? She was supposed to be confined to the infirmary for her own safety - but then went and sat down with them to eat.
"Blame people like fincher who lost sight of why ripley was the survivor and an interesting character. "
Fincher didn't write it, and Weaver was on board with the direction the character took.
S.M
Jul-24-2016 7:25 PM
"I can feel how i want to feel about whatever i want to feel lol thats the beauty of "having my own opinion" sweethaaart! (bogart voice) lmao "
I don't recall challenging an opinion, more a point of fact.
" And her having to prove herself AGAIN that she's a woman who can hold her own is ridiculous...."
When did she need to prove herself? Dillon asked her to lead them when Andrews died.
"As far as who ever had control of it.....the last person to get the credit is, the director...Fincher, so its his ship..... titanically speaking (plenty pun intended)."
Anyone who knows anything the production history, knows Fincher had very little say in how things went, and he certainly isn't going to get final cut on his first feature. There wasn't much he had control over.
"Ridley and Cameron did it. "
Ridley and Cameron had completed scripts that weren't being changed by Fox and Brandywine on a daily basis. Nor were they being undermined by their own studio.
"Sigourney didn't direct the movie or had the final say"
Siggy has the final say on Ripley.
S.M
Jul-24-2016 7:54 PM
Again, I'm not challenging your opinion at all. You're hardly alone in disliking Alien3, and your opinions on it are perfectly valid.
However, there are opinions and there are facts, and perhaps if you are made aware of certain facts, it might change your opinion. Or by querying your opinion, and getting more detail on your opinion, it makes me rethink my opinion. Or it might not. Doesn't matter either way, but that's why we have discussions.
There is absolutely no intent to humiliate anyone.
Lone
Jul-25-2016 1:19 AM
Most of us are well aware of A L I E N 3's production debacle. However, I actually don't think it is half as bad as some people think. In fact, in many ways it works better as a sequel to A L I E N, with it's tone of dark foreboding and death.
The thing I like most about it is that it ended Ripley's story in a pretty moving and fitting way. There should never be a happy ending for any of the sagas characters. Some may survive, but for most, death is an inevitability when dealing with the MORB and it's horrific lifecycle.
It would appear that many want the opposite, in the form of the Ripley-Hicks-Newt family unit. So they will get what they want, a continuation of Ripley facing the Alien lifecycle, then her handing over to Newt, to continue the hackneyed cycle.
I don't see the point to that. I'll stick with Ridley, because he is expanding the Alien Universe and breaking new ground. That gets me far more excited than RAMBOLINA versus ALIEN and it's sequels!
Durp004
Jul-25-2016 1:25 AM
I like Alien 3 more than most probably and Hicks and Newts death didn't bother me much. If anything I liked the overall tragedy it gave Ripley and her relationship with the Alien.
So with that being said, not really interested in Alien 5 yet.
Thoughts_Dreams
Jul-25-2016 2:09 AM
I think that it was alright to kill off Newt and Hicks, I don’t even think that they are very important to the Alien universe as a whole. Their deaths could have been done better. Alien movies are not even about having a happy ending and making them into a happy family kind of movies would really suck.
The third one is good in its gloomy environment, its depressing feeling and how you deal with living in an environment far away from earth. How they ended Ripley in A3 was good but unfortunately they decided to resurrect her in Alien Resurrection for some strange reason.
No thanks to Alien 5 (been there done that) I would rather watch Alien Covenant where they focus more on the Engineers and eventual new monsters because we have seen the Xenos too many times now but they need to get the characters right this time.
Chris P: Yes the human characters and relations is what it is about and it won’t work without likeable characters.
Lone: Yeah I think that we have seen enough of Ripley. We already have Ripley in four movies, I just think that they should let her be. They should have stopped after Alien 3 though.
Michelle Johnston
Jul-25-2016 2:34 AM
@Lone Funnily enough listening to Sigourney made me realise how much the A L I E N series has grown with P R O M E T H E U S and whilst A 5 has to be informed by the Pre Equal investment I did not get any sense that there was excitement about making A 5 more meaningful in that context the emphasis was on A.Q. verses E.R. Given they are going to drive a coach horses through A 3 and A 4 the reintroduction of Hicks and Newt could come off as fan service were all the intellectual initiative and drive is in the pre equals. Ridders will put down markers (The ripley connection) but that is just so people can understand the overall fit but with what we are seeing there is a lot more to the next instalment than mere Zeno Fest.
Put simply I am with you.
S.M
Jul-25-2016 2:58 AM
" Alien movies are not even about having a happy ending and making them into a happy family kind of movies would really suck."
Was Aliens really a "happy ending" though? Nearly everyone was dead. It's not really any happier than Alien. Ripley's 'instant family' was reward for facing and overcoming her fears. Cameron couldn't really have a down ending because he didn't know what might follow.
Aorta
Jul-25-2016 3:32 AM
Plus, down endings don't seem to be Cameron's thing.
Ripleys family worked in the context of wrapping up Aliens but I think what a lot of people here didn't want was a sequel with Newt in danger, and Mom and Dad to the rescue. Thankfully, now that isn't possible. At least I hope not!
One thing I liked about 3 was the depth Newt's death provided Ripley, some real 3 dimensional trauma outside of the fantasy elements, yet possibly traceable to the fantasy elements, necessitating worse, self-inflicted trauma (ordering Newt's autopsy). I thought that was some brilliant drama.
Thoughts_Dreams
Jul-25-2016 3:50 AM
S.M:
The main characters survived - one woman, one man, and a kid which makes it for a happy family ending and also the movie didn't have a scary feeling like Alien had. Yes the marines died except for Hicks but they were more like fill characters. Alien had the cat and Ripley surviving the beast so yes I would say that Aliens had a happier ending than Alien if you don't put animals at the same level as humans.
"Cameron couldn't really have a down ending because he didn't know what might follow."
Maybe, or he simply preferred a happy ending.
Michelle Johnston
Jul-25-2016 5:45 AM
I think we need to define happy endings. If we go back to Ripley at the beginning of ALIENS she is a deeply traumatised changed individual woken up after losing the chance to be a mother to her daughter I cannot imagine anything more traumatic. Added to which everyone thought she was nuts.
If R & H & N survived showed how that shared experience gave them a powerful once ever connection and Newt ended up being chest busted and Hicks watched the woman whom he loved and worshipped self sacrifice that would have been one hell of a movie. A good ending for mankind and a traumatised awe full experience for the three of them. If they had set down in a monastery where they would recover and be healed before the single Newt A L I E N and the Queen pregnancy had happened that would have been an astonishing movie and away to end matters.
I hope some of the couples in Covenant will explore that same kind of emotional intensity where not only is the Zeno related more closely to us through D & S but it wrecks mayhem on real relatable people who love and care for each other. Perhaps the complication of a pregnant woman being chest busted would send out the message that we should not meddle with the creative path better than a lot of standard gore for the 16 to 24 year old audiences and the baby boomers who want it one more time. Something awful but not gratuitous but really shows what can happen when you start f…ing around with destiny. Real awful displays would also make the mythos of these mechanistic gods and their gardeners understand the value of what is missing a God/Creator of Love.
BigDave
Jul-25-2016 6:54 AM
an't this a polarizing subject lol
I think this is why Fox had changed minds on a few things and maybe why some never liked Prometheus and are really hyped about Alien 5.
In order for the Fans to get what they wanted from a Alien 3.... they would have had to make sure they could have cast Biehn and Henn.
Was killing them off Stupid... it depends if you could have done a story to cast those actors... it was not the best story we got. But i keep hearing Weaver on about how they needed Happy Endings...
Sorry Alien Franchise should give no Happy Endings... she should stick with Avatar lol..... I am happy Ridley is trying to bring us back in to a Dark Franchise... i worry Alien 5 is a Pop Corn Family affair in space.
Only things i am interested in is the Xeno and Engineer Tech after the events of Aliens... did Weaver not want to die in Alien 3 because she never wanted to do any more movies..
Then she said recently its only because she heard of the AVP series and thats why she wanted Ripley Killed off? But soon came back for Alien R before the AVP Movies.
Sorry this is going to ruffle a few feathers but i think to me Weaver wants to have her finger in all the pies... be that Aliens, Avatar and Ghostbusters if they do anther movie.
I think there was a better Alien 3 to be made, and i think it would have benefited from having those Characters but i would have still at some point killed them off... so that a Alien 4 could be made where Ripley is then a Hard as Nails No BS Character scared for life by the events of Aliens and Alien 3
BigDave
Jul-25-2016 6:59 AM
As for the Draft of Blomkamps well it did have some interesting concepts... it would be interesting to see how they could be evolved. And Cameron said its got some pretty original ideas there, it would be interesting to see what they are.
But i have a feeling they are going to give us more closer to a Avatar than a Alien.... i think its too much of a Happy Families in Space idea from the comments i have read. When we hear that Ripley and Co (includes Bishop) should have a happy ending...
Sorry i dont buy that..... but it would be interesting to see, and to see how Blomkamps ideas work out as i have not been to impressed with his stuff so far... its not been bad... just far from a darker movie like Aliens.
And so i worry Alien 5 would be not much different to a Alien R myself
BigDave
Jul-25-2016 7:09 AM
But what is done is done....
They are bringing those Characters back... and i for one look forwards to seeing how they use Newt....
They need a good story and character to be well written make the movie a bit dark and ultimately have Newt be passed the Torch by Ripley and by that have Ripley Sacrifice herself to save Newt.
They can then carry on with a Alien 6, 7 with Newt if its done right.... but i think Weaver wont let Ripley get killed off again...
And so we could see her with her Powerloader and Disabled Parking Badge killing Xeno Butt for many years lol
I think Alien 3 was ok, had flaws... i would have had Hicks Survive the whole Story but have Newt get Chest Busted..... but thats because i would have wanted to get back to a more darker tone like Alien.
But i think now we have potential.....
If we go for a alternative route.... where Ripley Adopts Newts and gets back to some normality of life.... i want to see her and hicks part way else be too much happy families.
Then have Hicks contact Ripley because they found out some company had once again after 20 years got their hands on the Xenomorph and Ripley cant let that happen...
If they then set out to put a stop to this... i think if done right and with a bit of a twist of loss and sacrifice it could work well..... and if they cast someone to play Newt well enough then they can explore further movies with someone new...
So yes i think having RIPLEY given ONE MORE outing if done right could work well, and let her go out with a BANG!
Allow Newt to bear the toil of loss to such a Mother figure and then when the company ever go to try get their hands on the Xeno again.... Newt then tools up and is off to continue Ripleys mission to make sure the company and Mankind never have to deal with the Xeno again!
BigDave
Jul-25-2016 7:19 AM
"I think we need to define happy endings. If we go back to Ripley at the beginning of ALIENS she is a deeply traumatised changed individual woken up after losing the chance to be a mother to her daughter I cannot imagine anything more traumatic. Added to which everyone thought she was nuts."
just read your post and spot on.... really was a way to set up a family vibe but not to end on a happy note..
"If R & H & N survived showed how that shared experience gave them a powerful once ever connection and Newt ended up being chest busted and Hicks watched the woman whom he loved and worshipped self sacrifice that would have been one hell of a movie"
Agreed this is what i was thinking too, ;)
But yes now they can fast forwards 20 years and show the bond that Newt and Ripley have with each other we dont need to see Newt Growing up with Ripley blah blah...
By seeing the connection in the movie set 20 years latter we could see a Bond.... Many things they could do with this...
Maybe Ripley tries to bring Newt up to not have to worry about such Horrors.... maybe she however is influenced by Ripley and how tough she had to become and then Hicks.... that Newt joins the Marines... and finds out she is in trouble with the Xeno and Ripley is off to the rescue.... or even if Newt joins some Scientists and goes missing....
Ripley finds out the outpost she was working on, had brought back a Derelict/Juggernaught etc.
So it would be interesting to find out how they do it, i am concerned it may be too much of a happy family theme... especially if Bishop becomes part of the family.
Michelle Johnston
Jul-25-2016 8:26 AM
@BD I get you entirely one way you can deepen the mythos is to give it emotional context. Yes it will be fascinating to answer why the Zeno and what happened to the Engineers but if you also explore the enormous trauma that going up against all this stuff creates which they touched in A 2 and A 3 suddenly you make the horror, the dysfunctional nature of this world, even more powerful. I do not mean the "hay we gotta care about the dudes" I mean another level of emotional insight. How did that Engineer feel when he ingested the goo ? He was a zealot for the cause but David needs to tell us why they rebelled because that give us insight into these creators who appear utterly devoid of sentiment. I really hope Covenant puts human care and shared bonds up against this dreadfully dispassionate creative spark. Each can be viewed as stereotypical but the way they work off each other could be really imaginative and fresh certainly for the franchise.
Thoughts_Dreams
Jul-25-2016 9:09 AM
Michelle J: A happy ending could be that Ripley and the cat survived A1 (maybe not a happy ending but as close as possible within the limits of A1 because of the horror genre). Yes she lost he daughter but since we never saw her interacting with her daughter I can not really feel very sorry about that or yes I can but not that much because we never saw the connection between them that they had if that makes sense it wasn’t like Ripley and Newt. Everyone thought that she was crazy but that wasn’t very scary to me either. The over all atmosphere just feels more like a regular action movie compared to A1.
“If R & H & N survived showed how that shared experience gave them a powerful once ever connection and Newt ended up being chest busted and Hicks watched the woman whom he loved and worshipped self sacrifice that would have been one hell of a movie.”
But that would still be the same as far as Aliens goes and it will still be a happy ending. Maybe but I also think that we have seen chest busters a lot of times. I hope that they will do something new. Perhaps it could work (what you describe) but maybe it would be better if they would be dragged down under the floor where they get murdered because then you can use your imagination more compared to if they would show everything in the scene.
Couples and emotional intensity in AC – it seems that it could be a good thing. If they will do this right then it could work. Maybe a chest busted pregnant woman could work? One way that they could kill could be if there was a monster that the Engineers did that puts its huge hand around a (human head) so it gets crushed like you can put an egg in your hand and squeeze it until it gets destroyed. This could be interesting and a thing that we haven’t seen the Xenomorphs kill people before at least it would be new also it could make a point that the Xenos are really strong creatures or maybe there could be another monster that the Engineers have done that s that strong. My hope is that we might see monsters in AC that the Engineers have created that are more horrifying than the Xenos it could also shift the focus from the Xenos as a threat to the Engineers as the bigger enemy which could be interesting.
Another idea is that there is a couple on the Covenant (ship) that are in love and one of these two will be killed and the other one survives and has a huge mental break down/depression gets suicidal or what ever. Compare it to how people can react when they have depressions. If this is well acted then it could work.
“Real awful displays would also make the mythos of these mechanistic gods and their gardeners understand the value of what is missing a God/Creator of Love.”
It doesn’t need to be about a God of love but a simple message that we need to take care of each-other.
Diz
Jul-25-2016 9:10 AM
Yeah MJ hits it again. I think you have this good vs evil, love vs hate theme going on here, that portrays our very dual nature. Some want to keep it dark, others want to "see the light".
To me, it's not just a question of whether they kill these people off. We're all gonna die, some day. That's not the point. What I don't like is some director just flippantly killing off all these characters, we fought so hard with, as a convenient way of changing directions to do what his vision was. If they die, I want to see them put up some kind of valiant struggle before going down. Not just, oops, shit happen happened out in space, they're all dead, hey check out this new idea.
So I am not trying to say happy endings here, all around, but I would like to see a little bit more of story before they go down.
So, yeah, I'm all for a A:5 re-write, if that gives us a little bit more time with the characters before they go to Valhalla.
And yeah I agree; it was a mistake to kill them off in A:3, especially the way it was done.
And I agree with T_D: it IS all about taking care of each other, regardless of outcome. We're all gonna die. Dying well is what counts. Defending others vs just trying to save your own neck. That is the legacy of Ripley. And that is what I would like to see continued.
Thoughts_Dreams
Jul-25-2016 10:04 AM
Big Dave: I am fine with the fact that they didn’t have Newt and Hicks in Alien 3, it somehow felt fresh. Aliens felt like a sequel of Alien but since N & H wasn’t in A3 it felt like a new beginning in a way which to me felt like a fresh start in a lack of a better way to say it. Happy endings are not needed if they are done well and if they give people something to think about. Yes I agree that happy endings are more for Avatar. Totally agree with you about Alien 5 as a popcorn movie but still if it wouldn’t be I still wouldn’t be very interested in it.
Ripley died in Alien 3, I think that they should have ended there although I sort of like Call (the Android) in Alien 4. The only reason why I sometimes watch A4 is because of the Call character (there I said it) but it isn’t very good as a whole. A4 is a movie that I watch just some times in a year the most which kind of says a lot since because movies that I like are those that I can watch a bit now and then less so with Resurrection.
The Alien serie ended with Alien 3 in my opinion and everything else until Prometheus isn’t very necessary IMO. Avatar and Ghostbusters are movies that I am simply not interested in as well as I am not interested in Star Wars spin-offs. Happy families in space? F that and also I am not interested in eventual Alien sequels (6,7, what ever).
“Disabled Parking Badge”
That had me laughing a lot! Thanks :D
“If they then set out to put a stop to this... i think if done right and with a bit of a twist of loss and sacrifice it could work well..... and if they cast someone to play Newt well enough then they can explore further movies with someone new...“
The thing is that I don’t think that we need new Alien movies as well as 100 sequels, re-boots and what ever. Hollywood should stop being lazy fuckers (sorry about the swearing but I felt that I had to get that out of me, no pun intended) and come up with something new like they could take some ideas from A and some from B and do something new. Getting inspiration from many sources worked for Alien as far as I know so it could be done with new movies also. To put it short: everything after Alien 3 isn’t necessary (as far as Alien and Prometheus go) and also enough with the re-boots and sequels because it is getting ridiculous.
Thoughts_Dreams
Jul-25-2016 10:13 AM
Diz:
"... it IS all about taking care of each other, regardless of outcome. We're all gonna die. Dying well is what counts. Defending others vs just trying to save your own neck. That is the legacy of Ripley. And that is what I would like to see continued."
Thanks! I also want to have that theme continued but in other movies because there you have bigger chances to get new story, interesting, characters and so on. Somehow Alien have come to an end at least the part with Ripley, Newt, and other associated characters from Alien to Alien 4 and now 5 on its way but that is how I look at it.
What I find interesting about Alien Covenant is that they are trying new things (the Engineers for example) and new characters so I am looking forward to that. Hopefully they will get the characters right this time.
BigDave
Jul-25-2016 12:22 PM
Fingers crossed... that they are trying new things... but i am not having high hopes....
The Ridley "Star Wars Comment" oh dear they are already planning 3 more movies up to EP 12, to make a quick buck for the new era of fans at the risk of harming and diluting the originals... and i think Fox will do the same with Alien.
Comments like when Blomkamp said that Ripley is Alien, and i cant think who else also said the Alien Franchise is Ripley and her Story... Sorry i dont agree... but it seems Fox may think Ripley + Alien (Xenos) = $$£$£$£$£$£$£
Then when we hear that Alien Covenant will have Ripley link, and how they would need another 2 movies after Alien Covenant until Alien
Then how Alien 5 would be passing a Torch which could mean 1-2 more Newt vs Aliens...
Thats a whole lot of Alien... where as i think those Engineers have created many more evil things in the Galaxy... but oh well..
Thoughts_Dreams
Jul-25-2016 1:50 PM
Big Dave:
I wouldn’t really care if they would try some (one or two) things I think that the Xeno movies are over and done.
Do they really plan to have 12 Star Wars movies? That would suck, I think that 9 are enough and besides now Han is dead so it isn’t as interesting but I think that it would be interesting to see what happens with Luke. I don’t really care about the spin-offs, to me they seem to be a way to get some quick profit really. Where did you read about 12 movies?
S.M
Jul-25-2016 3:16 PM
"Then she said recently its only because she heard of the AVP series and thats why she wanted Ripley Killed off? But soon came back for Alien R before the AVP Movies."
She said that 20 years ago. And came back for Resurrection when she heard what they were trying to do with it.
"Sorry this is going to ruffle a few feathers but i think to me Weaver wants to have her finger in all the pies... be that Aliens, Avatar and Ghostbusters if they do anther movie."
1) Is that a bad thing?
2) Is there a reason she shouldn't have a finger in those pies?
"Sorry i dont agree... but it seems Fox may think Ripley + Alien (Xenos) = $$£$£$£$£$£$£"
They've spent $149m making Alien movies with Ripley and made $706m. Seems they're not far wrong.
Lone
Jul-26-2016 12:43 AM
I don't think that killing off Hicks and Newt was necessarily a bad thing, but I understand why it annoyed people.
After having invested in the characters, having them die from the outset was too much for some people, and could be viewed as a mistake, given the continued trauma and drama that a different exposition could have created.
I think the reason for doing so, was to have the focus on Ripley. The story was about the end of her journey, through self-sacrifice.
It really should have been left at that, but of course, Ripley is now set to be resurrected once again!
S.M
Jul-26-2016 1:55 AM
Hicks and Newt were catalysts for Ripley to regain what she'd lost to the Alien in the first film. Hicks was the mentor who was able bring out the Warrior (in true Cameron fashion). Newt (kinda conveniently) brought out the Mother.
Neither were especialy deep or developed to any degree. But they - like a bunch of other supporting characters in Aliens - were certainly memorable. Characters don't need to be deep or developed to leave an impression.
MonsterZero
Jul-26-2016 6:06 AM
"After having invested in the characters, having them die from the outset was too much for some people, and could be viewed as a mistake, given the continued trauma and drama that a different exposition could have created."
Not at you lone, but fans in general:
One of the reasons you create characters like Fifield/millburn...(the crew of the Prometheus). They are fodder for the beast and no one says anything on their deaths.
You create engaging and well liked characters...You have fans pissed off when they die. You get snarky reviews : "They killed the only good character(s) in the movie...2 out of 4.."
And you pages of internet uproar on how they shouldn't have killed this character....and you are unable to shape the story as you see fit...a horror story not a action flick.
The monsters are the stars
It's not called H U M A N or Humans/ Humans3/ Human:Resurrection
Hollywood regurgitates 8,000 human oriented character studies a year....Maybe 1 or 2 movies dealing with super beings monsters black goo etc...
BigDave
Jul-26-2016 8:28 AM
SM
I am not disagreeing with Fact as that seems your thing, i remember she wanted nothing to do with Alien Franchise after Alien 3 maybe because she heard of the AVP movies which yes i never disputed she said this a while back... i may be mistaken if i maybe was not sure about if she brought that reason up recently i have a habbit of getting my posts mixed up.
I meant as in recently as prior to Alien R so that was my mistake accidentally putting recently as to mean last X many years.
I dont seem to follow Weaver too much, not really a favorite actress for me.... kind puts me off as IMO and its my oppinion i get the feeling she feels like movies she is in she feels are a bit about her too much... like she feels shes very important... which i guess for some movies yes she was... she does not seem as laid back and respectful (maybe not right word) but i mean like Fasbender never seems to blow his own trumpet yet he is a Fantastic Actor... But i understand ability does not always make you big as Bill Murry is far from Great and look at the Success of Schwarzenegger yet he is not going to win many Oscars.
But he still seen as a A-List and Draws $$$$ and thats what counts... and i think thats why Weaver wants all her fingers in the pies of movie shes been involved with..
Hey we are only Human and if she can make herself money and the companies think she is a big enough draw then indeed they are going to cast her.
So Ripley is to Alien as maybe Schwarzeneggers T-800 is to Terminator..
BigDave
Jul-26-2016 8:45 AM
As far as Alien+ Ripley = ££££$$$$ i was not saying this to dispute Facts again... but stating that this seems to be the case....
And that in my opinion it would be nice to see something a bit more different, i feel the Franchise that started to branch off with Prometheus gave us more than Xenomorphs and Ripley... but i think Fox feel that Ripley and Xenos sell and they are going to run along with this for as long as it makes money.
I have not disputed once they make money, even AVP movies make a good return.... my point is that they do see a way to make $$$$££££ and regardless if the Beast is Cooked and some fans have seen the Xeno and Ripley to death..... If Fox feel it would make £££$$$$ and the movies with them does make Money they will continue...
Its a money business.... if Avatar Flopped and bearing made 25% Profit and no one cared about Space Smurfs then they would not make a Avatar 2.... if Avatar 2 is a big hit then they would make a 3, and 4.
My comment about Star Wars is valid, as Disney see the Franchise as massive and as long as they can make a good return and if Star wars fans from the Originals feel that a Star Wars EP 10-15 would damage the franchise... if it makes MONEY and the New Generation of Fans who was born after the mid 90s are really into it then they would carry on making Star Wars movies.
The same applies to ALIEN....
My point is however Alien is very limited compared to Star Wars.... or it was...
* Aliens
*Ripley (other Characters who are not so important)
*Weyland Yutani Company
*Androids
*Space Jockey/Derelict ****
Thats the lot.... if Ridley said the Xeno had been done to death before... surely Ripley had been too.... and i felt the Franchise had a way of expanding to explore Weyland Yutani... what else do they do... and a Origins Story.. Apart from WANT the Xeno!
And the Space Jockey and who are they and what else do they do apart maybe use the Xeno as a Weapon.
Prometheus gave us a chance to explore the Space Jockey and Weyland Company top open new doors... but it missed its chance to close the door on the Alien Xeno in a way that satisfied most fans.
So i felt the Franchise had more to offer than Xenos and Ripley.... but i am concerned that Fox feel that without them, they cant make money!
They tried something different with Prometheus and i think they felt the majority of people was disappointed because it never had XENOS or the Spoon Fed Origins.
But as i have said before... if Fox feel adding Ripley and Xenos will make this movie sell, be that AC and Alien 5 then thats what they would do... until its proven otherwise.
And so im concerned we are getting Ripley/Xeno fan service.... but maybe Fox Feel Alien is the Tale of Ripley and the Xeno....
And so yes if those TWO elements are what Fox feel will make more money than not having them then we would end up with them.... If Alien 5 does well.. it ends with a Ripley passing Torch but not dead.... then a Alien 6 is planned if Weaver things she can make Money and Fox feel they can make money then from Weaver and Fox point of view you cant blame them.
I just see more potential in the Franchise...
But hey... if they introduce in Alien C or Alien 5 that the Predators play a role in the Xeno or the Urns and it hits big with Fanboys and makes money....
Then if they feel Predators make $$$£££ adding them as Canon then thats what they would do as at the end of the day, while they want to serve us fans... and to make money they have to please us to a degree..
Its all about the money....
If Prometheus failed to Break Even..... i think Fox would leave it alone.... and eventually Re-boot a Prequel and wipe Prometheus off as non-canon...
Sounds absurd.... its what they are doing with Alien 3 and Alien R
BigDave
Jul-26-2016 8:51 AM
I think killing off Hicks and Newt annoyed a certain brand of Fanboys...
i would say Cameron and Blomkamp fit that bill....
And i think Fox may feel if pleasing those kinds of people who think Ripley, Hicks and Newt should have carried on a different way... and same fans who may have not enjoyed Prometheus because it lacked Xenomorphs...
I think if Fox had choice of grow some Grapefruits or give what some fanboys want... they had to a degree tried something different with the Evolution of Spaights Alien Engineers to the not so Xeno Lindeloffs Paradise..
And its all about the Money...
if Ripley is 85 and kicking Xeno Ass with the need of a Power Loader in Alien 7-8 LOL or she gets cloned and given the Arnie CGI treatment and this sells the Franchise then Fox would continue to do so.
I just felt... Prometheus was touching on some bigger things than a Cargo Hold of Xeno Eggs used as a Weapon....
BigDave
Jul-26-2016 9:10 AM
I just hope Fox see the bigger picture.... and Scope...
But if this Alien 5 is done well, and its not all about look at RIPLEY... i think they need to do a very good job with Newt... build her into a Character we can care more about... then they could explore a Alien 6 with her... which i hope Ripley takes a back seat..
I would like Ripley to pass away in this movie... or the next after... let this movie be a Last Big Appearance for Ripley and Emulate the Alien/Aliens Ripley... while trying to then build up Newts Character.
If done well, then a Alien 6 with Ripley passing away and passing Torch to Newt could build Newts Character way more.... If they did a Alien 6 i hope they do something a bit different than the standard variations of Xenomorph.
I also hope the Ripley links in Alien Prequels are minor...
I would be interested to see how they tackle this movie and what ground breaking ideas or ways to explore previous ideas they can come up with.
I still IMO feel Weaver seems to think a bit high of herself in her comments as if (IMO) Alien 5 is the bigger idea than Prometheus and its sequels....
Like how it would have been done now if not for Alien Covenant.... Hello... the Franchise is bigger than Ripley lol
But on the flip side yes you can understand maybe her point.... because well if we are going to do this Alien 5 and if there is to be a sequel (which while not stated... it would be logical if Alien 5 is a big hit).
Then surely getting it done now, rather than latter is important due to Age.... Weaver has commitments and by putting Alien 5 on back burner... she may have missed the chance to get the movie shot sooner... as now with commitments it may be few years yet.
And lets assume Alien 5 was shot... would it had been more ideal if it was done in 2014 rather than say 2018 as far as shooting? So i can see the point.
But Ridley has the same Agenda... he would want to get his Alien Prequel Told... rather than wait until after Alien 5.... Ridley is no Spring Chicken and he cant guarantee how long he can be doing what he is doing.
And i think this is why he has set Alien Prequels a Priority for him. I think Fox wanted Alien 5 to come out after but not many years latter but it depends on Weavers other commitments now.
And you have to understand why they would not want to have Alien Covenant and Alien 5 made at the same time and released in the same year.
Michelle Johnston
Jul-26-2016 10:04 AM
At the core of this discussion is the pressure to extend franchises which are considered a safe investment counter balanced with making them interesting and a really valuable addition to the franchise.
What makes this particular franchise interesting right now is one director who started Ridley wants to make more films and its most famous actor wants to go around it one more time but not together.
Making a film shot in the dark with some horror and an ALIEN emerging to do its usual stuff would be a devaluation. Ripley coming on all I really know you guys are idiots I will deal with this son of bitch would also be a devaluation.
People may not enjoy the way the story of Prometheus was told and the exposition left vague but it has added far more to the original notion far more than any other subsequent film.
If A C blends P and A and tells us a good deal more of the mythos, which seems increasingly likely, if it is a success and it leaves questions for the third film I would expect that to go next. If those people making a fuss on the internet about A 5 like A C expect the sequel to A C.
It is about money and it is about success oddly there has always been a thrust for Prom 2 perversely because Prom 1 left so many questions but there is another reason it was the most elegantly made of all the films and set you thinking.
A 5 may have sharpened Ridders thinking and that competitive element combined with his sense of ownership may have played into the hands of everyone here encouraging him to beat the c..p out of the competition (whilst being in the producers seat of course).
Aorta
Jul-26-2016 10:24 AM
There's been a lot of noise made about Ridley 'putting A5 on hold' and now Cameron has added his voice to the chorus with 'it could be made right now' or whatever he said, and all this does is inflame the fan base's frustration.
With Fox so intent on resurrecting the Aliens story and the fans so intent on having it, why would they wait? That isn't Ridley's decision, but Sigourney, Cameron etc. seem happy to let people believe it is.
It could be that Fox didn't want to let any more time elapse before continuing the Prometheus story. It could be that Ridley's movie was ready to go, not Blomkamp's. Given what he's done to date, it's probable that Blomkamp's script needed help. Who knows?
Conspicuously absent was Blomkamp himself. Why? Is he too immersed in Chappie 2? It just seems bizarre that he wouldn't be there, it's a day or two of his time. Yes, it was a reunion, but he's provided it with a good dose of energy and you'd think he would attend as the face of the way forward. Hmmm.
Whatever, it just feels like a bunch of big, spoiled (and in Sigourney's case somewhat delusional) babies not lifting a finger to support the artist(s) who's vision and daring made their various successes possible.
But then, the Alien story was always at its core one about parasites.
MonsterZero
Jul-26-2016 11:17 AM
I left A L I E N thinking: "Wow that creature is terrifying! "
I left Aliens thinking: "I wonder if Ripley and hicks are gonna get hitched?"
I left Alien3 :"Wow that franchise is over..where can they possible go without Ripley?!?"
I left A:R : "Are Call and Ripley gonna get married and fight Xeno's?"
I left Prometheus thinking :"So many unanswered questions...must visit the forums!"
BigDave
Jul-26-2016 5:05 PM
Well a lot of work had been done on Prometheus 2 prior to Blomkamps Alien 5 ideas and concept work. Which he worked on while working on Chappie..
Prometheus 2 had a base back story back then but seems Ridley and Fox where having problems on getting a draft they liked... which is why Micheal Green was brought in to work on Jack Paglens draft.
They had as of October 2014 apparently finally got a final draft for Prometheus 2.... but then Blomkamps Alien 5 concept was released and seems fans seemed to be more hyped about that and Ripley and Co than following Shaw and David in a movie to talk to Gods and steer away from the Xenomorph.
Ridley had sat down with Blomkamp to discus some elements of his Alien 5 that where conflicting with things they may have wanted to cover in Prometheus sequels....
Blomkamps Alien 5 then went quiet... then we had Ridley finally say that Prometheus 2 has the green light but he would also be Producing Alien 5....
We got Alien 5 having a different plot... seems some things where changed.. such as now being set 20 years after Aliens and feature Newt in a role where she may be passed the Torch. The other Alien 5 was set not far after Aliens and Concept work seems based on this.
We then get Prometheus 2 change its name to Alien Paradise Lost and then to Alien Covenant with a different synopsis and Plot...
So yes i think Fox and Ridley have a plan to have both movies come out and not conflict each other but maybe even work together.
S.M
Jul-26-2016 6:00 PM
"I am not disagreeing with Fact as that seems your thing,"
Oooh! Saucer of milk, table 4!
"and i think thats why Weaver wants all her fingers in the pies of movie shes been involved with"
Define "fingers in the pie". She was dead at the end of Avatar, it's not like she can demand that Cameron bring her back.
"My comment about Star Wars is valid, as Disney see the Franchise as massive and as long as they can make a good return and if Star wars fans from the Originals feel that a Star Wars EP 10-15 would damage the franchise... if it makes MONEY and the New Generation of Fans who was born after the mid 90s are really into it then they would carry on making Star Wars movies."
Many fans think the prequels "damaged the franchise". Didn't stop TFA making squillions. And Rogue One will make squillions too. Disney paid billions for Lucasfilm - they're not going to just leave it alone. Fox didn't have to acquire Alien form someone else - they'd be mad not to exploit it.
"Prometheus gave us a chance to explore the Space Jockey and Weyland Company top open new doors... but it missed its chance to close the door on the Alien Xeno in a way that satisfied most fans."
A lot of fans didn't want the door closed at all, and I don't believe "most fans" want a satisfactory close on the Alien. The reaction to Blomkamp's film seems to indicate the opposite.
"I just hope Fox see the bigger picture.... and Scope..."
That would be nice yes. Though Prometheus and Covenant seem to be heading down that exact road.
"I think killing off Hicks and Newt annoyed a certain brand of Fanboys..."
I don't know if you were around when Alien3 came out, but the film as a whole annoyed most people, and part of that was cheaply killing off two favourites during the opening titles. And while the idea of bringing those characters back doesn't exactly thrill me, a LOT of people want to see this happen.
BigDave
Jul-26-2016 6:12 PM
Yes with regards to the Star Wars... my point was if the Franchise can make money, they will exploit it... are they going to ignore the cries of some fans... when they can maybe entertain a whole new generation of new ones and make money nope...
And i agree some was not pleased about Star Wars Prequels... but Star Wars was EP 3-6 so what of EP 1-3.
Its not a problem if done right... Phantom Menance had its Pros and Cons... and they learned from that and made the next two movies more darker to a degree and there is every chance Alien Covenant can learn from Prometheus failings as far as disappointments... but both Prometheus and Phantom Menace were successful at the Box Office.
I think its how far do they go?
EP 7-9 yeah! Follow on what happened to Luke and Solo etc and pass the Torch on... but now a EP 10-12?
Star Wars is a big universe where The Anakin Family is just one piece... like Alien we have the Xeno and Ripley... but we also have the Company and Engineers and i feel thats a great Scope..
And hope if we get more and more Alien movies we dont have to go to the Xeno or Ripley all the time.
S.M
Jul-26-2016 6:21 PM
Star Wars has the Skywalkers. Alien has Ripley.
Star Wars now had Rogue One. Alien has AvP and Prometheus.
BigDave
Jul-26-2016 6:26 PM
"Oooh! Saucer of milk, table 4!"
No i dont touch Synthetic Blood ;)
Hope you never took that bad... i meant like you seem to like Facts and post a lot on here which is not a problem, its nice to have someone who has a lot of Facts to show to us... i respect your vast knowledge.
"Define "fingers in the pie". She was dead at the end of Avatar, it's not like she can demand that Cameron bring her back."
I thought she was returning? but to be fair i have not seen Avatar all the way though i could not get into it, i think i owe it to myself to attempt a another viewing.
"A lot of fans didn't want the door closed at all, and I don't believe "most fans" want a satisfactory close on the Alien"
I was not suggesting that, my comment did not mention this was the case, but i can understand how it may have seemed.
I was on about what perhaps Fox/Ridleys aim was, as we had this Alieny Spaights draft that they then decided to explore the Engineers and Set up a sequel to explore those and go further away from Alien in the sequels... the beast is cooked, only so much snarling etc.
I think they wanted to use Prometheus to give us some Xeno Clues but leave it ambiguous and open ended... in the hope they can maybe close the Door on the Xeno and Alien links... and explore the Engineers.
Which is where the Prometheus had one sequel route that would lead to Alien and another that would go off to explore something different.
I think they was trying to close the door a bit on the Xeno and explore something else.... but by not giving us Spoon Fed Xeno... they could leave that door just a little open for future.
This is what my comment was based off... but in hindsight i think a number of fans was not pleased with how they did this... and the interest in Blomkamps Alien 5 has maybe made Fox wake up and think.. hang on, did we miss the ball here some how?
And thus maybe they are now going to give us a more Alieny Route....
I agree some was upset with Alien 3, i just looked at it at the time as maybe they could not cast those members for some reason?
Its like if they did a direct sequel to Aliens now... where Newt is 12... you could not cast Carrie Henn could you?
I was disappointed only in i felt they could have used Hicks more in the movie and i would have had him survive if i was re-write the movie... but i would have killed Newt off in a Chest Busting Scene...
Some may not liked that either... its a case of some Fans did not mind her being killed off and others did... like some fans disliked the direction Prometheus took and some did not..
No Two people share the same opinions and having different ones is always good, even if you disagree with others its always good to have them and respect them.
And so SM i look forwards to more of your debates on here and its nice to have a Factual Spin on things too ;)
with me i think my poor grammar and essays make it easy for people to now quite understand or take my points out of context or wrong.
BigDave
Jul-26-2016 6:34 PM
Indeed and i am looking forwards to Rogue One... Its nice that they are doing Spin Offs.... but they have to be done right.
I think Star Wars is a little different than Alien... but some may not agree and may see Alien Franchise as being about Ripley and the Xeno...
Like Star Wars is about Storm Troopers and Skywalkers, but i would not want to see a EP 10-12 then 13-15 about them... nope i think there is more to the Franchise than that.
I think Alien 5 wants to give Ripley a send off, and touch on some interesting ideas... im all up for that but i would hate to see a Ripley in a Alien 6,7 etc..... i dont mind if Newt is passed the Torch if the Xeno threat is different.
I also hope the prequels dont touch upon Ripley too much but i think as with Star Wars... maybe Fox feel that Alien Franchise is Ripley? Maybe like Disney do with Star Wars and the Skywalkers.
I just hope after EP 7-9 we have a end to that and explore something different, however i can understand Star Wars is a bit different but i feel it would be lame if they had explored Luke and Leia and Solo in another 6 movies... and likewise for Ellen Ripley in more than 2 Tops.
But i welcome Spin offs... in Star Wars universe and the same for Alien... i.e Weyland-Yutani Spin off that has nothing really to do with Ripley or maybe the Xeno.
And Finally to explore the Engineers and what else they created..
But i understand the companies may see Alien+Ripley and Star Wars + Skywalkers as Safe Bets to make cash and as long as it makes cash and introduces new fans then they would continue.. and you cant argue with the Economics of it all.
S.M
Jul-26-2016 6:46 PM
"I thought she was returning? but to be fair i have not seen Avatar all the way though i could not get into it, i think i owe it to myself to attempt a another viewing."
She is returning as far as I know, but if Cameron hadn't written her a part she can't make him put her in the film. I'm not sure what this "fingers in the pie" thing means?
"And thus maybe they are now going to give us a more Alieny Route...."
Maybe. It would a case of Ridley thinking there was something different he could do with the Alien based on his previous comments.
"Its like if they did a direct sequel to Aliens now... where Newt is 12... you could not cast Carrie Henn could you?"
Newt was 6 in Aliens, but yes either way you couldn't cast Carrie Henn. Neither could you cast Weaver or Biehn. You couldn't get away with a direct follow on sequel where they've aged 30 years (unless Peter Jackson has some new de-agey jiggery pokery at WETA).
"I was disappointed only in i felt they could have used Hicks more in the movie and i would have had him survive if i was re-write the movie... but i would have killed Newt off in a Chest Busting Scene..."
If you think the audience got slapped in the face by Newt's actual death - chestbursting her would've been a lot worse. I'm not sure where they could take the Ripley Hicks dynamic. Hicks is pretty one dimensional and not an equal in that relationship. But I am interested to see where Blomkamp might take it.
"I agree some was upset with Alien 3, i just looked at it at the time as maybe they could not cast those members for some reason?"
Apart from the early William Gibson scripts there was no desire to include Hicks and Newt, so casting wasn't going to be an issue. I think it was Ward's idea originally to flat out kill them.
"with me i think my poor grammar and essays make it easy for people to now quite understand or take my points out of context or wrong."
Fair enough.
BigDave
Jul-27-2016 6:24 AM
"I'm not sure what this "fingers in the pie" thing means?"
I meant that it seems she likes to think and maybe expect to be involved in Franchises she has already played a role in.... if i remember right when Ridley had announced a Prometheus sequel... i am sure Weaver made some comments about she would like to appear in it if she was asked... i cant remember if this was 100% Fact though or rumor.
But when i was starting on a draft for Prometheus 2 i decided because of the rumors to cast her in a minor role as Shaws Guardian after the death of her Father, this Weaver would be Grandmother to Ripley lol
I just get the impression she may feel she is needed for any sequel even if its in a minor role... like GhostBusters 2016
I think Alien Covenant will be Alieny, but from some things we have seen it seems they are not abandoning everything from Prometheus to give us a PopCorn Alien Flick.
I think however Alien 5 would be a Popcorn Alien Flick, but if they bring something interesting and new to it maybe that could be good.
Nice little Fact about Alien 3 was writing them out of the script anyway, i guess it depends what they wanted to show.... and which route to take.
Would Alien 3 had worked with Ripley having to protect Newt from the Inmates and the Xeno? Who knows... i understand some fans were upset and wanted to maybe see the Family Element explored.
And i think this is what Blomkamp is going to do, but then you have some fans who hope for a Darker Tale and No Happy Endings..
Ultimately if they choose the Happy Family route... as long as its done right, i would go and see it, but i do think it would be nothing but Popcorn flick like Alien R was...
